Talk: Project Charlemagne

Discrepancy in Gen 5

Tabular discrepancy

(Would someone please say what it is? Or maybe shorten the displayed parts of the tables for visual comparison if that helps. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 15:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC))

There are 58 people in generation 5 and two who are in both generation 5 and 6. The Ahnentafel puts them in generation 6 because it prefers male descent. The generation number is gender blind and puts them in generation 5.

Seeming discrepancies will get larger as of generation 6. rtol 16:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, so if my mother was a daughter of CM I should be his grandson but if at the same time my father's father was one of his sons the program would insist that I was great-grandson. That's unacceptable. Why can't we get it to report the shortest line? — Robin Patterson (Talk) 09:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Eight years later, no response. Maybe someone with more time than a busy academic has should investigate the coding. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 11:53, November 25, 2017 (UTC)

How do we decide that a generation is "complete"?

We say there are 60 people in this generation. I see now that my figures for Ton's numbers were misguided and that we are away ahead of him for Gen 5 and already a little ahead for Gen 6. I'd be interested in helping further with this project, if I could see what evidence was examined to give someone the confidence to say our Gen 5 was complete. I have in mind some sort of table of relevant links to main online "authorities" for each individual. Not much of that evident at present: I pick a descendant at random - Baldwin II, Count of Flanders (c865-918) - and see only a FamilySearch reference. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 15:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Ton's numbers are CUMULATIVE. His generation 5 is generation 1 to 5, his generation 6 is 1 to 6 and so on.

Generation 2 is complete because it contains all known children of Charlemagne.

Generation 3 is complete because it contains all known children of generation 2.

And so on.

For each subtree, I identified what I believe is the most reliable source. You're free to dispute the information. Two of my sources have a suspiciously high number of single children.

Note that most of the sources that claim to have "all" descendants, go wrong in 2nd or 3rd generation already. rtol 16:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

If you want to help, you could do two things

1. cross check, starting with generation 2
2. adopt a subtree and add pages

rtol 16:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

A third thing that would be very useful for Familypedia in general and Project Charlemagne in particular is adding the royals of Germany and France. All, except Napoleon, descend from Charlemagne. Our current selection of royal families is clearly biased toward the English and Dutch speaking world. 17:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Publicity

I've just published a lens on Squidoo about this project: http://www.squidoo.com/project-charlemagne

Visits and comments would be welcome. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 07:38, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

I wrote an item about this project on our Facebook page. Now, thanks to Fred, I have been inspired to search Facebook for Charlemagne after joining a Dutch version of "his" page. I found half a dozen, linked up with three or four of them, and mentioned this project in a discussion and/or on the "wall". People are interested in their descent from KdG. So let's raise the tempo of work on making this project a showpiece. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 14:30, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

GEDCOMs from Ton Deunhouwer

Unsolicited data (zipped file opening to 111,487 kB with 100,513 individuals) sent by Ton Deunhouwer to Robin Patterson in May 2010 involving thousands of descendants of Karel de Grote and other people, compiled in Dutch language. I have tried unsuccessfully to upload a derived GEDCOM file, 1149 kB, which has KdG ("Generation 1") and 11 generations of descendants (i.e to "Generation 12"). System tells me the file is corrupt or empty (but it has 1149 kB!) or with improper type (but .ged is permitted here!) - so if it's corrupt how does Wikia know and how can I check it? Anyone interested may ask me to email a copy of TonKdG11.ged. You can have a copy of the biggie if really keen.

Just as a teaser, here's what Generations 1 to 4 look like (with a few Familypedia links added):

Descendants of Karel de Grote

1 Karel de Grote 742 - 813/14 Charlemagne

.. +Chimiltrudis Of Amatrau Himiltrudis Himiltrude (c742-c780)

........ 2 Alpais Van Frankrijk - 852 Amaudru (?-?)

............ +Beggo Graaf Van Parijs Begon de Paris (c757-816)

................... 3 [2] Eberhard Graaf Van Parijs Eberhard de Paris (c808-c865)

....................... +[1] Susanna Van Parijs

............................. 4 [3] Bego Van Parijs

................... 3 [1] Susanna Van Parijs

....................... +[2] Eberhard Graaf Van Parijs

............................. 4 [3] Bego Van Parijs

........ 2 Pippijn Met De Bochel 777 - 810 Pippin the Hunchback (c769-811), maybe confused with Pepin of Italy (773-810)

............ +Chrotais x

................... 3 Bernard Koning Van Italid - 818 (Pepin had a son Bernard of Italy (797-818))

....................... +Kunigunde De Gellone 797 -

............................. 4 Pippijn Van Parijs

................................. +Een Gravin Van Vermandois 820 -

........ *2nd Wife of Pippijn Met De Bochel:

............ +Bertha Van Toulouse-Aquitania (Pepin had a wife Bertha)

................... 3 Adelheid Athalia Van Italia (Pepin and Bertha had a daughter Adelaide of Italy (?-?) with at least four descendants named "Guido di Spoleto")

....................... +Wido Van Spoleto - 879

............................. 4 Anonsura Rothildis De Spoleto

................................. +Adalbert Este - 885

............................. 4 Wido Van Spoleto

• 2nd Wife of Karel de Grote:

.. +Hildegard Gravin Van Vinzgouw 758 - 783 Hildegard (758-783)

........ 2 Rotrud (Hrotrudis) Der Franken - 810 Rotrude (775-810)

............ +Rorich De Maine

................... 3 Rorich De Maine

............................. 4 [7] Blichilde De Maine

................................. +[6] Ranulf Aquitanid

........ 2 Berthe De Francid - 822/23 Bertha (779-823)

............ +Angilbert De Heilige De St. Riquier Van Ponthieu - 813/14

................... 3 Hardouin De Ponthieu - 826: Harnid (?-?)

....................... +Dochter Van Richard d' Amiens

............................. 4 Bivin/Bouin De Vienne 822 - 877

................................. +Richilde De Bourgogne

................... 3 Arsinde De Ponthieu Arsinde de Ponthieu (c798-?)

....................... +Remigius De Reims

............................. 4 Bertha De Reims

................................. +Raymond De Toulouse - 864

................... 3 Nithard Graaf Van Ponthieu 793 - 842 Nithard (c790-c844)

............................. 4 [5] Heligaud Graaf Van Ponthieu - 864

................................. +[4] Berthe de Ponthieu 827 -

............................. 4 Berthe De Ponthieu

................................. +Hernequin De Boulogne

................... 3 [4] Berthe de Ponthieu 827 - Berthe de Ponthieu (c805-859)

....................... +Hernequin van Boulogne 825 - 882

............................. 4 Odokar van Boulogne 855 - 914

................... *2nd Husband of [4] Berthe de Ponthieu:

....................... +[5] Heligaud Graaf Van Ponthieu - 864

............................. 4 Herlouin Graaf Van Ponthieu - 878

................... *3rd Husband of [4] Berthe de Ponthieu:

....................... +N. De Amiens

........ 2 Lodewijk Van Frankrijk 778 - 840 Louis the Pious (778-840)

............ +Irmingard In De Haspengouw - 818

................... 3 Rotrud / Hildegarde Rotrude (800-860)

....................... +Thierry Graaf Van Champagne

................... *2nd Husband of Rotrud / Hildegarde:

....................... +Gerard Graaf Van Auvergne 800 - 841

............................. 4 [6] Ranulf Aquitanid

................................. +[7] Blichilde De Maine

............................. 4 Gerard Van Limousin-Auvergne - 879

................................. +Dochter Van Saint GTraud d' Aurillac - 909

................... 3 Pippijn Van Aquitanid Pepin I d'Aquitaine (797-838)

....................... +Ingeltrude Koningin Van Aquitanid

............................. 4 Bertha Van Aquitanid - 874

................................. +Gerard De Roussillon

................... 3 Lotharius Van Beieren 795 - 855 Lothair (795-855)

....................... +Irmingard Van Tours De Elzas - 850/51

............................. 4 Lodewijk Van Italid - 875

................................. +Engelberge Van De Elzas - 890

............................. 4 Irmingard Van Italid

................................. +Giselbert Maasgouw

............................. 4 Lotharius Lotharingen - 869

................................. +Theutberga Van Arles

............................. *2nd Wife of Lotharius Lotharingen:

................................. +Walrada x

............................. 4 Hubert Van Arles - 864

........ *2nd Wife of Lodewijk Van Frankrijk:

............ +Judith Welf Van Beieren - 843

................... 3 Adelaide De. Tours Prinses Van Frankrijk - 866 Adelaide (c799-?)

....................... +Robert Seine/loire - 886

............................. 4 Richilde Van. Parijs-Frankrijk

................................. +Heribert Vermandois

............................. *2nd Husband of Richilde Van. Parijs-Frankrijk:

................................. +Robert Graaf Van Tours 864 - 959

............................. 4 Robert Van Frankrijk - 923

................................. +Aelis ?

............................. *2nd Wife of Robert Van Frankrijk:

................................. +Beatrix Van Vermandois

................... 3 Gisela Van Francid Gisela (c820-aft874)

....................... +Everhard Van Friuli - 866

............................. 4 Unruoch Friuli

............................. 4 Berengarius Friuli - 924

................................. +Bertila Van Spoleta

............................. 4 Heilwig Van Friuli

............................. 4 Judith van FRIULI 840 - 881

................................. +Adalbert van THURGAU 837 -

............................. *2nd Husband of Judith van FRIULI:

................................. +Koenraad II van BEIEREN 835 - 881

................... 3 Lodewijk De Duitser Louis the German (c806-876)

............................. 4 Gisela Franken

................................. +Berthold Paltsgraaf Van Schwaben

................... 3 Odo Graaf Van Orleans

....................... +Ermentrude Van Parijs

............................. 4 [9] Ermentrudis Van Orleans 830 - 869

................................. +[8] Charles Frankrijk 823 - 877

................... 3 [8] Charles Frankrijk 823 - 877 Charles the Bald (823-877)

....................... +Richilde Van Metz, Dochter Van Bivin Van Gorze

............................. 4 Rothildis Van Frankrijk

................................. +Hugo De Bourges 862 - 892

............................. *2nd Husband of Rothildis Van Frankrijk:

................................. +Rodgar Graaf Van Maine

................... *2nd Wife of [8] Charles Frankrijk:

....................... +[9] Ermentrudis Van Orleans 830 - 869

............................. 4 Judith Van West-Francid

................................. +Aethelwolf Van Wessex - 858

............................. *2nd Husband of Judith Van West-Francid:

................................. +Athelbald Koning Van Wessex - 860

............................. *3rd Husband of Judith Van West-Francid:

................................. +Boudewijn Vlaanderen - 879

............................. 4 Hersent Van Frankrijk

................................. +Reinier Henegouwen

............................. 4 Lodewijk Frankrijk 846 - 879

................................. +Adelheid Judith Van Parijs

............................. *2nd Wife of Lodewijk Frankrijk:

................................. +Ansgardis ?

Yes, only one fully official wife (with not all of her children) and the earlier possibly unmarried consort.

Don't ask me or Ton about Pippijn Met De Bochel. I told Ton that was the first thing that had struck me. Seems to have been at least partly confused with his more legitimate half-brother Pepin of Italy (773-810), who is not listed under his mother.

Next thing that strikes me is that Alpais (alias Amaudru) had only two children and that they paired up to give Alpais a grandchild.

Ton said in his covering email:

...Use what ever you like But stay critical by comparing with other data It is not my research but of many others and some parts maybe outdated or different continuation with other parents But many sources are mentioned but not all updated Because as already mentioned the submitter died at 53 in 2006

A better source is www.kareldegrote.nl with also cancelled series of the 202

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 11:33, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

We did receive permission to upload ".ged" files but it seems to have been withdrawn. -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 22:34, April 14, 2017 (UTC)

Charlemagne's male-line descendants - barely 80 of them!

A correspondent "samsloan" on soc.gen.medieval has said Charlemagne:

had thousands of descendants including probably all of us. However, his Y-DNA did not survive. All of his family lines had "daughtered out" within a few generatons. - http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/c08d29656aa51d95?hl=en

Sam could be right on the main point (though he's a little astray of published studies on the spread of KdG's descendants). The last male-line descendants Familypedia has discovered are in Generation 11. See Project Charlemagne/Y-DNA. Our groupings by "sons" and "daughters" down to generation 6 gave us an excellent start for headings, and their coding just carries on, as an #ask finding people for whom KdG has an Ahnentafel number that is an integral power of 2. (Would someone please add coding, if possible, to display only males then change "Children" to "Sons" in each heading. I tried [[Sex::M]] without success.)

Generation 8 is quite extraordinary: a dozen chaps had only two sons between them: Louis I de Chiny (?-1025) and Otto de Vermandois (c1000-1045). May be worth checking some more sources. Or does it just need a bot or human to go and tickle more sensor pages? I've noticed very few Ahnentafel numbers greater than 2,000 anywhere, even on pages where there must be 15 or more generations in our system.

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 11:44, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

"In progress"

There must be too many generations in that section for it to match its introduction ("(People whose children do not yet all have individual pages on Familypedia, but whose ancestral connection to Charlemagne is completely documented here) "). An extreme example is at the end, where the Bergman ancestry is incomplete and therefore could contain other lines to KdG that are NOT "completely documented here".

Seems to me that if we haven't completed gen 11 we can't logically include anyone in that section unless enough ancestors of theirs are listed here so that none could be one of the missing children in gen 12. Put another way - if your earliest "dead-end" ancestor was born more than about 30 years after the oldest unfinished person in gen 11, you could have a line to that person and therefore cannot claim that your "ancestral connection to Charlemagne is completely documented here"; so you should not be listed under "In progress" unless its introductory wording is changed to suit.

-- Robin Patterson (Talk) 04:03, September 29, 2016 (UTC)