Talk:Family name

Ashkenazi Surnames

I am removing this entire section for now. Almost everything in it is either inaccurate or flat-out false. To wit (comments in italics):

Until a few hundred years ago, Ashkenazim (Jews from Northern and Eastern Europe) Italy, too!

followed no tradition of surnames, Except for rabbis and their families

but used patronymics within the synagogue, and matronymics in other venues. There was no such distinction, and matronymics were rarely used.

For example, a boy named Joseph of a father named Isaac would be called to the Torah as Joseph ben Isaac. That same boy of a mother named Rachel would be known in business as Joseph ben Rachel. I'd love to see a source for this.

A male used the Hebrew word "ben" (son) and a female "bat" (daughter). Some males used the Aramaic "bar".

When northern European countries legislated that Jews required "proper" surnames, Jews were left with a number of options. Many Jews (particularly in Austria, Prussia and Russia) were forced to adopt Germanic names. No. Certainly in Prussia, plenty of Jews adopted names derived from Hebrew, Latin, Polish, French or other languages.

Joseph II The Emperor of Austria, or some other Joseph?

issued a law in 1787 which assumed that all Jews were to adopt German names. The city mayors were to choose the name for every Jewish family. For names related to precious metals and flowers a fee was gathered, Evidence of this fee-based naming practice would be most welcome. Hint: it's a myth.

while free surnames were usually connected to animals and common metals. Many took Yiddish names derived from occupation (e.g. Goldstein, 'Gold-smith') 'Goldstein' means 'Gold-stone.' 'Goldsmith' would be 'Goldschmidt.'

, from their father (e.g. Jacobson), or from location (e.g. Berliner, Warszawski or Pinsker). The "Ekelnamen" myth deserves its own page, but should not be repeated on a page devoted to facts. The whole idea of "buying" names is undocumented and comes from a few unreliable sources.

That makes Ashkenazi surnames quite similar to Scandinavian and especially Swedish ones. What does? The '-son' suffix, I suppose.

In Prussia special military commissions were created to chose the names. True only in South Prussia and New East Prussia, which were Prussian only in 1795-1807. In the rest of Prussia, fixed surnames were adopted in 1791 (Silesia), 1812 (East Prussia, Pomerania, Brandenburg) or later (other parts).

It became common that the poorer Jews were forced to adopt derogatory, offensive or simply bizarre names. No, it didn't. Where's the evidence? Where are the derogatory, offensive or bizarre names?

Among those created by Ernst Theodor Amadeus Hoffmann were: Part of the myth. There's no evidence that he did anything of the sort.

   * Ochsenschwanz - Oxtail
   * Temperaturwechsel - Temperatureglitch

No--means "temperature change."

   * Kanalgeruch - Sewerstink
   * Singmirwas - Singmesomething 

The Jews of Poland adopted names much earlier. Then why did the Prussians have these commissions? South Prussia was the heartland of Poland.

Those who were adopted by a szlachta family usually changed the name to that of the family. How many Jews were adopted by szlachta???

Christened Jews usually adopted either a common Polish name or a name created after the month of their baptism (that's why many Frankists adopted the name Majewski - after the month of May in 1759). All of which has nothing to do with Jewish surnames.

Both the given names and surnames of Ashkenazim today may be completely European in origin, though many will also posess a traditional Hebrew name for use only in the synagogue. Or they may possess a traditional non-Hebrew name, such as Kalonymus or Alexander (Greek), Mordechai (Persian), etc.

I think a link to a few pages over at Wikipedia would be far more worthwhile than the above.Silesius 16:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

As for an evidence of derogative names, please look at Meyers Conversationslexikon 1888 which I think is a reliable source. And there is even a jewish joke based on the name "Kanalgeruch". Another respected newspaper, Die Welt, in an article about Einstein, calls this process an excess and that it was restricted to Galicia (southern Poland/western Ukraine). Those who dare read more German, view this article (citing another one). It lists the names, how many (or few) there are (8 in Berlin 1929) in contrary to those in Jewish jokes (67), and restricts the case to western Galicia and the year 1805. May I conclude with that author that the case exists, but not to a great extent, and that it lead to a trauma or, if you like better, myth. Winfried 23:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

OK: let's look at the evidence. Meyer simply states that names such as Pulverbestandteil and Kanalgeruch were "of course" imposed on Jews. Doesn't show evidence that this ever happened (a "where" or "when" would be most welcome, or even a mention of a single person who had an "aufgedrungen" name).

In general, that's the objection to the "Ekelnamen" myth: where *are* these names? Why don't we see them in any of the voluminous records that survive? Western Galicia's Jews are well-documented, their vital records preserved on hundreds and hundreds of microfilms. I would be utterly grateful to anyone who could show me where and when people bore these names.

Die Welt: no source for the assertion; just a repetition of the "Ekelnamen" myth with one of the usual jokes for support. (Completely irrelevant to the topic, I might add; the article is about the family name of Albert Einstein, which derives from mid-17thC southern Germany, not late-18thC Galicia or Prussian/Russian Poland.)

The w-akten.de item, is a little tendentious (Humboldt had little to do with surname-adoption in most of Prussia--couldn't have, in fact) and obscure (how could "Pergamenter" be derogatory--"Parchment-man" is a sofer, a Torah-scribe; "Leichentritt" looks like a typo for "Leichtentritt", i.e., "Lightfoot"). But it does get one fact right: the "Ekelnamen" exist primarily in jokes (Jewish, anti-Semitic and otherwise), and some of the names in question were at least as common among Gentiles.

(As a corrective to these notions I can only suggest a good browse through a German telephone directory. Wacky names are quite easy to find.)

Now, there seems to be some disgruntlement re: my deletion of the (utterly unsourced, internally contradictory) article above, and my failure to provide something better. Well, I originally did something similar over at [[1]]; but there, there was another article, full of facts, references, etc., to which I could redirect the reader who got to that section. I believe the page is still set up that way. Can't say as how I've checked over here to see whether a similar article has appeared; if so, let's link. (If not, let's link over to Wikipedia!)Silesius 03:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no particular stake in this discussion, but if someone is going to delete a substantial portion of an article, because of its perceived errors, particularly without prior discussion, I think they need to replace the deleted material with an "improved version". it's been five months since the Ashkenazi section was deleted, and no obvious effort having been made to replace it. Given that time lapse, I don't see a reason for not restoring the deleted material. This is especially the case since the otherwise nice discussion above by Silenius does not document the positions taken. Saying it isn't so is an expression of personal belief that anyone can make, without having anything to base it on. It is, I grant, much harder to show that something is not the case. The question is "what are these conclusions based on?" I'd like to suggest that Silesius provide a comprehensive rewrite to this section, and document the basis for the conclusions stated. If, after a suitable period has elapsed (not months) the article remains as it currently stands, we'll revert to the previous version, with a pointer to this discussion in case someone is moved to upgrade the article. Bill 00:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Good plan, Bill. Robin Patterson 01:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be based on the notion of "anything is better than nothing." Sorry, but unsourced, internally contradictory, factually incorrect (like, anyone can check the meaning of German words in a dictionary if they don't believe me) stuff like that is *not* better than nothing. As to the "Ekelnamen" myth that's perpetuated in the text, you're right, Bill: it's hard to "disprove" an assertion like that--but the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion; and for the last 125 years, the assertion and its attendant jokes, insinuations, inventions, etc. have been accompanied by a remarkable lack of "show me"--that is, of actual evidence that these ugly names a) existed and b) were assigned in the manner described.

So: why is the burden of documentation on me, and not on the author of the original text? As I note above, there are better discussions of this stuff elsewhere in WikiWorld. Check 'em out at [[2]] -- yes, the Ekelnamen appear there too, albeit with a reference to the primary source of the whole story (Karl Emil Franzos). Why not just link there or copy/edit it? Silesius 03:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of this wiki. It is NOT the wikipedia. The wikipedia has some very admirable rules two of which are (paraphrased) a) all information derived from verifiable sources, and b) no original research. That's fine for the Wikipedia. As a practical matter, it doesn't really work that way in genealogy. Yes, people should source their information, and that's something that I personally encourage. But the reality is that most people doing genealogy don't understand why that's needed, and don't do it. If we insisted that they do, there would probably be a half dozen articles on this site. (As to "no original research", genealogy by its nature IS original research. Apply that rule and th site would be completely empty.)

But coming back to the point, this is NOT the wikipedia. I have no problem with your discussion, and would welcome a replacement article. However, you made a decision that this piece of the article was unfounded, and though you provided your reasons, you did not, I think, seek out any particular discussion of the article with the original author.---instead, you arbitrarily deleted it. That left you with, as I see it, an obligation to fill in the blank you left. If you'd like to do that, we'd be happy to have you formalize your thoughts on the subject and insert a replacement. I, however, am not going to attempt to judge whether your views are better than someone elses. If this is important to you, you'll take the time to write the replacement. If not, you won't, and we'll restore the original version, leaving your comments appended for the benefit of anyone else who might feel inclined to deal with this subject. Bill 12:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Bill said this well. Much of genealogy is based on flimsy evidence- and we have to keep contradictory information and explicitly not delete it, but note that Source X said someone was born one year and Soure Y said they were born another year. It is true that folks could come in here with feuds or centuries old grievances against various families and carry their disputes into this area.

The other thing that makes genealogy different is that the information is about such minute details that are difficult to authoritatively establish. This sort of information is at an extreme granularity that is not widely collective as wikipedia is. Sure, someone could come in with some beef about a massacre that happenned in the Balkans 400 years ago. Well, ok, in such collectively establishable cases, we can simply request folks to take their dispute to an authoritative venue where there are enough folks that care about the details to arbitrate the issue. Then genealogy wikia will simply accept the Wikipedia version of the truth. There is this case of american indians who have historically been referred to by outside people as Anastazi descendants. Well they hate the term because it is pejorative- it means enemies of the Apache or something- but in a very offensive way. You get the picture. Folks really get upset about it because it is their heritage. So as a process thing, I think it is better to hammer that stuff out where there are 20 people in the room that cares about the issue- then we just accept that version.

But that process solution doesn't scale to the enormity of the details that genealogy has to grapple with. As a process thing, we know that this is going to break down when there are only about 100 people total in the world that care about the issue, and only maybe one or two of them are online, much less on genealogy.wikia.com. What do we do when the material is about some factual matter that no one on WP cares about, or for that matter any other authoritative web site? Well, regular contributors can't arbitrate it. We have no way of knowing that the alternate version presented is ludicrous or not, and we shall not be put in the position of being thought police over it. The choices are: 1)Version 1 of the truth, 2)blanked article 3) an improved version that points out both sides of the dispute in an NPOV kind of way.

Bill and Robin have pointed out that while option 2 may be the correct one for WP, it is not for genealogy wikia. If you can't be bothered to offer option 3, then we have no choice but to go with option 1, even if what you say about it's distortions may be true. Sorry- but you've spent more time arguing for zero than it would take for option 3. ~ Phlox 16:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)