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Forums: Index > Watercooler > Surname article creation


Templates for surname categories and articles

Let's talk about surnames. We have many pages involving surnames. I have an idea on how we can simplify what we already have.

In many of the surname categories, we have a whole bunch of information. Section headers for variants, orgin, meaning, external links, etc. Thing is, most of these are empty. Of course, we do want to expand and have a lot of history of surnames. And when we do the actual pages in the category gets pushed to the bottom of the page.

A solution brought up multiple times is to have an article separate from the category. Meaning, Smith contains information on the origin, meaning, variants, etc. of the surname, while Category:Smith Surname only lists the articles that are categorized with it.

Take a look at Help:Surname. Perhaps it could be more simple? How about just one method of surname page standardization? Which one? I have an idea for a new one I have been developing:

Template:SurnameArticle provides an infobox, which can link to variants of a surname, to Wikipedia's article on the surname, and, categorize the article with the Surname, and put it into the Category:Surname articles categories. This template is used on articles such as Smith. Use the template, fill in the infobox, and under the infobox goes all the background info, history, etc. On the very top of the article, a link to the surname's category. Example: Ferguson

Template:SurnameCategory is used on surname categories and provides a link to the article describing the surname (see above paragraph) and a brief sentence telling the readers what the page is about. Just a link, brief description and all the categorized subcategories and articles. Example: Category:Ferguson Surname

If we use this method, we can simplify the Help:Surname article, because having one method that uses the solution mentioned in paragraph 2 and being able to link both pages will be a lot simpler. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 03:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm pleased you have been convinced that we want separate articles so as not to push subcategories and articles out of sight on the surname category pages. I agree with the overall proposal 100%. I couldn't see how "Template:SurnameArticle is used on surname categories" if it's also used on the article page; study of the Ferguson example shows that you meant a new Template:SurnameCategory; in my opinion not as good as the standard Template:Catmore, particularly because yours invites readers to see something "here" when in fact they have to look on another page. Robin Patterson 04:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Your last paragraph is a bit short on logic. We can simplify Help:Surname by cutting out two of the three currently offered options; nothing to do with "If we use this method". Rewriting the remaining option so that it refers to the article instead of the category may simplify the help page further but I doubt if it will unless we put all the explanatory bits under the template or on its talk page or "/doc" subpage. Robin Patterson 04:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Before we go too far - we cannot have just the plain name

Okay, just realized something. We can't just use Smith anymore. We should use Smith (surname) and be consistent with all the other surnames.

I realized this when I thought of my great-great-great-great-grandmother, Sarah England (1814-1897). Her surname "England" page would be at England, but England is the name of a country. Same goes for George Washington and other surnames that come from place names or just are place names. Or even people whose last name is May, which is also a month. So, what we should do is this:

England (surname) - about the surname

Then have some sort of disambiguation system for stuff like this.

For surnames that don't have a disambiguation to it, the article with the surname only can be redirected to the surname article.

Example: Smith redirects to Smith (surname) until "Smith" becomes a disambiguation for other things.

Unless someone thinks we don't need to do this, I'm going to start to transfer the templates and articles to the new format. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 03:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

On the whole, I agree that the plain name would not be good. Too many exceptions or conflicts, as you say: England, Spain, Washington, London, March, May, Adam, and so on. But why bother with parentheses? England surname, Washington surname, May surname, Adam surname, etc. Will require us to abandon some of the use of PAGENAME but you can handle the coding there! ... Robin Patterson 03:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, ....., we can start by transferring the articles about surnames to a title that contains the word "surname." -AMK152(talkcontribs) 03:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
They will need the links from their categories changed eventually, but the automatically created redirects will do for now. Robin Patterson 05:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I think use of (surname) looks better than just surname. (Smith (surname)/Smith surname) Wikipedia uses this too. (Wikipedia:Smith (surname)). ..... I have adjusted Template:SurnameArticle and added the needed additions to the template on the pages. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 14:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

A bit slow on the change of mind there! But it is indeed the WP way where WP uses anything, so it's OK with me. You can fix the pages I've already changed to " surname". Robin Patterson 15:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Okay then, I'll get started on that. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 19:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Are we going to use the method on categories too? (Category:Smith (surname)) I think we should. You only mentineed it briefly in the edit summary. If so, I can start transferring them. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 22:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Renaming the categories?

(Extracting some sentences from the above section)

I would like (and have for a couple of years wanted) to give the category names "surname" instead of "Surname" too. Your bot could do that; that would simplify the coding of the link in {{SurnameCategory}}. Robin Patterson 03:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I have been thinking of a transfer to lowercase "surname" instead of using "Surname" for category names for quite a while (why hasn't that been brought up before? or has it?). Anyway, I will try to figure out how to make the bot do that. One method would be to change categories for all 2,300+ categories individually. I'm not sure if there is another way, but I will look into it. ..... -AMK152(talkcontribs) 03:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

There is, of course, more to changing the surname category names than I said. Each old one would need to become a category redirect, and we would need to do thousands of category redirect fixes for the articles in those categories. That goes back to what's now the first proposal left on User talk:AMK152Bot. Robin Patterson 05:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I can get the bot to move pages to a new category, but I don't know how to do the category redirects. ..... -AMK152(talkcontribs) 14:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Now what do you mean by "how to do the category redirects"? Robin Patterson 15:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to use a bot to change the content of the category to {{category redirect|new cat name}} since "new cat name" is different for all the surnames. Unless can think of soem clever way to use the replace.py script, since that's what looks liek Phlox used when the YEAR births categories were changed. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 19:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

How the bot might do the whole job

I'm not sure precisely what the bot can do, but this looks like a way that should be possible:

  1. Find page with name in form "Category: Zxcv whatever Surname" that does not contain "category redirect"; refer to it as "Oldcat"; delete from it [[Category:Surnames]] and/or [[category:Surnames]] and/or [[category:surnames]] and/or [[Category:surnames]].
  2. Create (unless it already exists) new category page with the same name as Oldcat except changing Surname to (surname); refer to it as "Newcat".
  3. Move, from Oldcat to Newcat, any remaining category link. (Most will have had just Category:Surnames, but some have extras such as Category:Surnames of Poland.)
  4. Add, to top of Newcat, Template:SurnameCategory. (Ensuring that that template still includes Category:Surnames; I suggest renaming the template Template:SurnameCat or even Template:SCat because nearly every contributor will later be using it and some cannot spell "category".)
  5. Follow link in Newcat to article ("[[{{PAGENAME}}]]") (and create page if not existing); refer to it as "Art".
  6. Move all remaining content from Oldcat to the top of Art and add Template:SurnameArticle (which must include "[[Category:{{PAGENAME}}]]") above that. (People can then manually delete empty headings etc while moving items into Template:SurnameArticle.)
  7. Add to Oldcat "{{category redirect|}}" with the PAGENAME of Newcat following the pipe.
  8. Return to instruction #1 (only about 2300 times; better than if we waited a few years!)
  9. When no more Oldcats to be worked on, search every page of the database (including Template:Surname and Template:Categories) for a category link that contains "Surname]]" and change that to "(surname)]]".


I think that's all, but I composed it in outline while trying to get to sleep so there may be the odd omission. Any flaws apparent? Now can the bot do it?

Try a couple of Oldcats so that several of us can look at the results. Then if OK please give us all 24 hours' notice so that I can switch off my relevant Preference so as not to get hundreds of unwanted emails for changes to pages on my watchlist.

Robin Patterson 00:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to try this out with Category:Wilson Surname as a test. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 02:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I got as far as step three. There's not any script that I know of that can add a template to the top of the article or to transfer certain content from a category page to an article page and add a template. The next section I will present the best way I figure this can be done. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 03:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Process

  • 1. Adjust all templates so that they categorize articles usign the (surname) format. There are a few templates out there, so this isn't that hard to do.
  • 2. Move all categories. (Category:SURNAME Surname to Category:SURNAME (surname). All exact text will be moved.
  • 3. Remove the Category:Surnames fro mthe retired categories.
  • 4. The bot gives a choice to delete the category. If not, we would have to manually create category redirects for the retired categories.
  • 5. Use the SurnameCategory template on the new categories.
  • 6. Move text on surname categories to it's surname article.
-AMK152(talkcontribs) 03:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I can get this going at any time. Just tell me when you are ready so you don't get hundreds or thousands of unwanted emails due to rapid changes. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 13:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Category:Unknown Surname

This category is for use for people whose surname is unknown. As it is not a surname, it should not change to Category:Unknown (surname). I think it should be at Category:Unknown surname. -AMK152(talkcontribs) 13:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. Robin Patterson 14:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
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