Forum:Dutch patronyms are not given names

Forums: Index > Watercooler > Dutch patronyms are not given names

|"Surname =van Hodenpijl"

|Given name =Alijd

|"Given name =Alijd Jansdr": NO, "Jansdr" isn't a given name, this is a patronym, adjustment telling who is the father.

Fred Bergman 15:22, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I see. Peru has something like that. Scandinavians have the patronym (e.g. Jansdotter) as a surname. Dutch have it as an extra in front of the family name, not "given" in the sense of being something the parents could choose, but fixed, just as the surname is fixed. OK, we will have to decide what we do with a Dutch patronym:

1. include it in the definition of "given name" (which Fred might not welcome, but which is not too different from what other traditions do for middle names)
2. include it in the definition of "surname" (which has logic, because it forms part of a fixed expression meaning "daughter of Jan van Hodenpijl", but which would complicate alphabetical order)
3. create a separately coded entity for it (which would involve some serious programming)

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 03:57, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

(The above was started on Robin's talk page but belongs here.)

source Genlias

The official [1] dutch genealogic information site of the government gives 3 names to look for, separate or single, starting with or complete: surname, patronym, first name. This is because some parts of the Netherlands (Friesland, Groningen) preferred longtime patronym above surname and changed surnames to often and also in all Netherlands poor people often had a patronym, not a surname. Often people had a surname and a patronym. Because the patronym wasn't official, everybody had his own way of naming the patronym (Ariesdochter, Ariesdr, Aries, Ariens, Arijs, Arys, etc). Because most people couldn't write and read all patronyms and names exists in different ways. So a family with 11 children started with 11 different surnames in 1812 ! There is not a fixed standard method to handle this, but the official site Tresoar and there of the province Friesland gives standard names and spoken names.Fred Bergman 06:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Solution?

So far, I have treated patronyms as a surname in cases where there is no surname, and as a middle name where there is a surname. rtol 08:20, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe that is generally usual and I did the same, but the patronym is never official, it is not a given name Fred Bergman 08:23, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I wonder whether the latest version of facts page contains a complete solution. Example:

{{header}}
{{#if:{{getfact|children-g1}}|
==Children==
{{showfacts children}}}}
{{namesake}}

{{footer}}
<references/>


{{set general info
|given name = Catherine
|middle names = 
|surname = Mills
|sex = F
|father = William Mills (?-?)
|mother = Sarah Cameron (?-?)
|short name = Catherine Mills
|full name = 
|titles = 
|siblings = Catherine Ada Mills (1870-1904);
|alternative names = 
|image = 
.....

Of course, the "middle names" thing will have to work, which it seems not to be doing yet (or it would say "Ada" above). And its definition might want to include family-type names that come after the surname (as in, for example, some Iberian traditions).

See new Forum:Middle names.

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 02:46, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll put in a patronym field. It will show up on the expert form but not the short form. ~ Phlox 05:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Great. Watch your language, though. There is no doubt a culture that uses matronyms instead. rtol 05:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

See response on matronyms at Forum:Person name properties#Property:patronomic ~ Phlox 02:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Continuation of thread

See Forum:Person name properties ~ Phlox 01:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)