Forum:Charlemagne's descendants

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Excellent project. Has anyone else done it apart from Fred's contact (now suffering ill health)?

Best discussed here rather than spread around user talk pages, I suggest, because a growing number of us will be interested.

I see there's a need for renumbering because someone has discovered a shorter line. Solution to that would have been (and minimising future renumberings would be) to get all of his children sorted, then all of his grandchildren, and so on, and anyone coming off a longer line would be obvious because they would already have the smaller gen number.

Remember the short line from Geo III to Geo VI. I think the error-prone Ancestry.com tends to use the royal line instead.

— Robin Patterson (Talk) 15:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

It is indeed best to work from the early generations onwards, but the current ones are what attacts attention! I'm afraid we'll need a bot to occassionally renumber generations as more lines appear.

Note that there are two templates.

1. {{OrderCharlemagne | N}} puts people in [[Category:Descendants of Charlemagne (Generation N)]]. We could have {{OrderCM | N}} which is shorter but less clear.
2. {{SovCM | CYear}} puts people in [[Category:Ruling descendants of Charlemagne]] where C is the country code and year is the year of accession. Rtol 18:03, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Generation 2

CM's kids now all have pages and info pages -- the same cannot be said of Wikipedia. This also includes a count of the grandchildren: 26, 19 of whom have a page already. Rtol 10:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Well done, gentlemen! Some Wikipedia administrator should ensure that WP has a link to FP. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 11:02, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Link is there already: {{Familypedia|Charlemagne (747-814)}} Rtol 11:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Good work. I've not checked whether all his kids that are on WP have the template. I did study the template and give it a /doc page, and I'll be writing about that elsewhere on this wiki if I don't fall asleep on the job. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 15:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The kids on WP are now linked back to here. Rtol 17:46, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Disputed descendants

Among the 26 grandchildren, 2 are disputed. They are singled out by the * in [[Category:Descendants of Charlemagne (Generation 3)|*]]. Rtol 10:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I note that for the "Descendants of Charlemagne" categories to make any sense, none of the descendants of the disputed people should be categorized as descendants, otherwise we'll need categories like Category:Descendants of Charlemagne (2 disputed links) etc. I notice that the Wikipedia page for Clémence of Aquitaine (1060-1142) implies that it is only a guess that she is the mother of Gerard II van Gelre (c1098-c1131), so there goes a whole branch into the "disputed" basket. Thurstan 22:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

That may be better indeed. And I would think that we would just put the first disputed into a category "Descendants of Charlemagne (disputed)" and not trace their children etc through the generations. Rtol 22:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

We surely need a bot. Removing the disputed line from Petronilla (825-?), William I, King of England (1027-1087) shifts a generation and he is the main anchor point for all later generations. Rtol 07:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

My opinion: Just categorize undisputed lines. Also note that William the Conqueror has multiple lines of descent from William the Conqueror. Also, it would be much easier to remove the categories manually than with a bot. -AMK152^{(talk • contribs}) 02:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Generation 3

Now complete, including a count of the 4th generation: Charlemagne had 45 known great-grandchildren, 4 of whom have a page on Wikia Genealogy. What happened is that people focussed on the lines that lead to England and Holland, and forgot about France, Germany, and Italy. So, putting up generation 4 will restore the geographical balance somewhat. Rtol 07:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Ruling descendants

I changed the categorization and the templates so that we allow for personal unions. Rtol 18:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Generation 4

Now complete, including a count of generation 5: 65 (incl. the first double descendant), 15 of which are on Wikia Genealogy. rtol 08:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Chapeau ! Fred Bergman 21:05, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Info pages

I added OrderCharlemage to the info pages and to the info categies template. rtol 21:01, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Automation

There is now a semantic test (thanks, Phlox) that automatically categorizes descendants. rtol 10:09, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

{{Descent Charlemagne test}} — Robin Patterson (Talk) 12:31, 17 May 2009 (UTC) It uses two parser function calls per generation, which means over 80 for recent people - restricting other things we can put on the page. Now that we have a couple more of the earliest generations finalized, can we cut a couple more early tests off? {{OrderCMTest3}} and {{OrderCMTest4}}? — Robin Patterson (Talk) 23:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC). See http://genealogy.wikia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Rtol&diff=0&oldid=268527. — Robin Patterson (Talk) 02:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

But there are still bugs, among others the sisters Katja and Nina Bleijenberg are wrong displayed. Fred Bergman 10:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Katja and Nina were manually categorized. Errors are introduced that way. To automatically categorize them, the page needs to be re-opened and saved (I already did that for the girls). So it will be while before automation is completed, and then every time a link is added we start anew. rtol 10:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

To give most people their lowest possible number as soon as possible, we can concentrate on family lines from the youngest people in each generation. Have we an easy way to see who they are? — Robin Patterson (Talk) 23:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's first finish the semantic descendants' lists. Then we can do "Descendant of Anybody (Generation N)" without expensive autocats. This would also remove the need for many of the current categories, including the "Ruling descendants ...". rtol 05:26, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Generation 5 complete

including a first count of generation 6 (71, 28 of whom are already there)

however, with auto-categorization (and re-categorization) it is not that important to do this generation by generation and I'll pursue family-lines for a while rtol 20:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

SMW is here too

SMW allows us to show the descendants of anyone without having to create categories. The autocategorization of Charlemagne's descendants has caused a general slowdown of Familypedia.

The plan is therefore as follows:

1. Remove the "Descendant of Charlemagne" categories;
2. Create a new category VIA; and
3. Create a template to show at any page a list of Very Important Ancestors.

This plan messes up the bookkeeping of the project to put all Charlemagne's descendants on Familypedia. I therefore created a page Charlemagne (747-814)/project. rtol 05:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)