Forum:Ancestry's License Restrictions

The previous discussion was probably getting too long for a single display. So we'll start a fresh page.

Cliff has replied to Phlox's comments, and has requested that I place it in the forum:


 * Phlox said, "Nothing you have said is new. What you have reiterated is in fact a very common misconception. Anyway, you are entitled to believe what you want. There are lawyers at Commons' forum that disagree with your POV. The concensus opinion amoungst them is that the images that have been copied from such sources are still public domain. That is the authority I am appealing to. What is the basis for your authority?"


 * In March 2003, I published a 10-page article (8½ X 11" pages) titled "Copyright History and the Rights of Genealogists" in "Tree Talks", the publication of the Central New York Genealogical Society. In preparation for the article, I studied the subject of copyright almost everyday for a full six months.  I am one of the 4-5 people on the Copyright mailing list who give definitive answers.  I do not share any "very common misconception," as you stated.  I have written much, and many times, to correct common misconceptions.


 * It appears that you misunderstood my first contribution to this discussion. In it I said, "In my opinion, there can be no copyright on nearly exact images of census pages."  That means that I don't believe that Ancestry can copyright its census pages.  I know that anything in the public domain remains in the public domain forever.  You and I are in agreement about that.  The lawyers at Commons' forum will not disagree with my point of view unless they also disagree with yours.


 * I know enough about copyright to say that we do not have a copyright issue relative to Ancestry's images. It is a matter of licensing.  Let us say that I own a book of public domain census images.  I keep it on my bookshelf in my house.  You come to my front door and ask to see it.  Even though it is public domain material, you have no right to see it.  However, if I wish I may agree to let you into my house and show you the book.  I say to you that if you want to see my book you must go to the back door, knock, and then remove your shoes before entering.  If you do not wish to comply, you leave my property.  If you agree, you get to look at the book and its census images.


 * With Ancestry, you are doing a similar thing. They say that you must either agree to their license or go away.  They own their copies of the census images, just like I own the book with its census images.  Public domain or not, you have no right to see the census images if they don't wish you to see them.  You realize that to be true, so you are forced to agree to a rather limited use of the images if you want to ever view them.


 * When people violate the license agreement with Ancestry, they have broken a legal contract between themselves and Ancestry. If they submit the images to a website, they violate the contract, but the webmaster/website is not also bound by that contract with Ancestry.  The images can probably be legally posted on a website, but Ancestry could take legal action against the person who submitted them.  Ancestry would almost certainly win.  A contract is an agreement between two entities.  A third entity is not bound by that agreement.  Nevertheless, Wikia should not encourage people to break the law (violate their contract with Ancestry) so that the images they retrieve could be posted by Wiki.  I imagine that Wikia's lawyers would agree with that.


 * Cliff Lamere