User talk:Zephyrinus

my personal links:
 * drafts
 * links
 * other
 * template
 * template2

Haeremai, welcome, talofa, Willkommen, bienvenue, welkom
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Enjoy!

Robin Patterson 21:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

You want an admin?
Let me know when you're ready. I look over the "Recent changes" most days. (I've not looked at those refs you gave me yet.) Robin Patterson 13:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Intro
Hi! I've read your very recent long message to me. I see no problem in integrating your graves project (and many others) into this site. You may have noticed that I created a new subpage of your user page and copied your Central Wikia submission to it (in case the original eventually gets archived and less accessible). I also integrated one or two cemeteries into our "place" subcategories, so there's a model if you need one.

Subpage names
Page names are shorter if you make them subpages of your user page rather than of your user talk page, so I recommend that you do that for future subpages.

Images
Images are no problem. One at a time, please! Categorised in two or more ways, maybe.

Pets
Not sure how well the pets will be received. They are part of people's families, though, so I can help defend the idea. I suggest that the term "pet" might be better as a prefix rather than another set of brackets at the end. "Pet: Tabby Patterson (1978-2001)", for example. We use the same system on the cities: Wikia for pages concerning a particular city; it has small advantages in saving typing at times.

Robin Patterson 01:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Z's very prompt first set of submissions and some replies to them
(dated later than the second set) (removing Z's initial colons now that we have suitable headings)

Oh, thanks for the tip on sub-pages.

"Pet:"
Question, just because I don't know any better: Doesn't the ":" create a new namespace in the MediaWiki software. I thought things like "Pet:" were supposed to be avoided on pain of really nasty things happening to you.

Best wishes, Zephyrinus 01:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't create one (doing that is a little harder!); if the prefix is one of the namespace prefixes (including one of the "hidden" ones, such as "project"), the page will be that sort of page. At present we have only the Wikia standard namespaces here, but other genealogy wikis have more, and we may follow one day (with "Pet" one of the possiblities if it catches on in a big way and would have real value as a separate namespace. If the names all started off from now like that, no more work would be needed - I hope). Robin Patterson 13:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we might be creating a bigger problem than what really exists. I only have a few photos from one pet cemetery.  We can just create a category labeled "Pet" - I think the graves themselves would be obviously distinguishable from those of humans - either from the location or from the names themselves (i.e. Fluffy, a beloved dog, etc.)  Zephyrinus 13:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Cemetery and person names
A couple more thoughts.

I am very verbose. A novelist rather than a poet. I think in chapters. Just me. Sorry.
 * So am/do I. Robin Patterson 13:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

How do we label individuals' articles these days? FirstName MiddleName LastName (Birth-Death) - or do we skip the middle name or what?
 * Yes - and maybe. Skipping the middle name is easier but runs the risk of needing a little more work later when/if that person's namesake with coincidentally same birth and death years appears. Give the full name if you can. Easy to change later if even more distinction is found to be needed, but a bit messy if the namesake's relatives have added their bits not realising that there are two different people. Robin Patterson 13:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking about creating articles for cemeteries with LONG names: Saint Stephens Catholic Church Cemetery, Ross Township, McCormick County, South Carolina, USA. BUT, if we have a category of "cemetery", this would be alphabetized under "Saint", rather than County and State - which would make cemeteries, I would think, very difficult to find. So, I ask for your input: how do you think we should label cemeteries? I think my precedent on Rootsweb is a little over-the-top, and isn't suitable for this Wikia. I will give this another think too.
 * Label it so that you expect the name is unique, much the same as for person pages and with the same ease of changing later. If there's only one Ross Twp in SC, don't bother with the county or country unless you have other reasons for wanting "redundant" detail. See below for categories. Robin Patterson 13:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Images; and trial and maybe error
Finally (for now), I've never uploaded an image before. Is there a help file someone can point me to?
 * Your entry below supersedes that question. Robin Patterson 13:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I look forward to working with y'all. I think a lot of these issues may be worked out by doing rather than over-thinking things. I'll try to think of a few cemeteries to try and just not be afraid to make a few mistakes at first before advertising this new aspect of Genealogy Wikia.
 * Brilliant. I can already see us offering to fill the gaps in the state list at the USGenWeb Tombstone Photo Project. But that's a few weeks down the track when we have a more visible structure and "help" pages. Robin Patterson 13:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Enough for now. Respectfully, Zephyrinus 03:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Media pseudo-namespace
Okay, I've checked a help file. This would also solve the problem:

[[Media:Example.jpg]]
 * To bypass the description page and link directly to a file, use the "Media" pseudo-namespace:

Does this work on Wikia? This would allow a link to a photo from the Cemetery page without needing to create a new page for each person containing the photos for that - this is similar to most pages on my Rootsweb pages (the ~cemphoto) site.


 * You've left me behind!! I confess to avoiding work with images, but I have some idea how to do it. I've turned your unfamiliar expression into a link to a new page, so let's put something there (including a link to where your info came from) and discuss further if I or someone else can get up to speed! Robin Patterson 13:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, goodness me, I don't think I can find it again. I just assumed I was talking with experts! :-)


 * I think I'll just try it and see what happens. Zephyrinus 14:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Now maybe the expanded Help:Images can lead you back there. Goodnight (2:33 am) Robin Patterson 14:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Cemetery categories
And then there is categorising the cemeteries. I was definitely thinking Web 1.0, to use catch-phrases. The Wiki software allows easy hypertext links to and from counties, townships, territories, states and countries. So, it should be possible to list have categories like County|McCormick and State|South Carolina and to include both of these on the Saint Stephens Catholic Church Cemetery page. But I'm not an expert on categories either - do I have this right? Thanks. Zephyrinus 10:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Basically, yes. No need for pipes (which have several functions, including a clever one with categories) in that context. See Category:Cemeteries in the United States for a rudimentary example of structure. Its subcategories can grow and proliferate in accordance with demand, as can those for any other country. Initially I've no problem with having a cemetery in its county category as well as its state category, but when the state gets more than a screenful we may recommend that that state's cemeteries be listed only under the county subcat if there is one. And so on. Robin Patterson 13:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I just clicked the link and I saw something right away. For future reference:  Please don't use abbreviations.  Especially for folks in, like, New Zealand.  It's even less obvious that "IL" means Illinois.  That's something I get pedantic about.  Maybe I'm just old.  These kids nowadays with their text messages . . . Aaarrrggghhh!!!  Zephyrinus 14:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree at least 99%. I've been expanding US state names on pages here and there. Wikipedia style is good and worth following in nearly every respect. (IL is not hard, but can you remember AK and AL and AR and AS?!!! - sorry if I made one of those up.) Robin Patterson 14:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

GPS etc
Somewhere you mentioned that. See Help:Geographical coordinates in case there's a useful relationship. Robin Patterson 14:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, with several I have GPS coordinates. It's nice - or will be nice when the weather is warmer - a Sunday afternoon drive in the country - gather GPS coordinates . . .  Zephyrinus 16:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

West Leroy Cemetery, Michigan
A test.

There are some comments in the category section. I much confess that I don't like the article/page title. I think I would prefer the entire: West Leroy Cemetery, Leroy Township, Calhoun County, Michigan, USA as the page name. But I will bow to your wishes. I think West Leroy Cemetery, Michigan will be unique.

As for the article creation for the individual person. I made one for William G. Thomas (1868-1944) but I don't like it. I think I'm going to become stubborn on you, Robin, and tell you that individuals are your problem. I will deal with cemeteries and you can deal with individuals. You are more experienced with that template anyway. I guess I don't see a need for me to get involved in the creation of an individual's article/page. I mean I have to draw the line someplace (work-load wise).

I will see if I can venture to add some more content from other cemeteries later today (if I have time). If I do, I will add them below.

Best wishes Zephyrinus 16:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Roadside Memorials, Wabaunsee County, Kansas, USA
 * Bellevue Township Cemetery, Bellevue Township, Eaton County, Michigan, USA
 * Riverview Pet Cemetery, Ross Township, Kalamazoo County, Michigan, USA
 * Badwell Cemetery, McCormick County, South Carolina, USA
 * Hamilton Cemetery, Bedford Township, Calhoun County, Michigan, USA

About Test Cemeteries
I chose the test cemeteries for these reasons: Mostly, I tried to include a variety of the cemeteries which will face this Wikia in the future if this project continues. I also wanted to confront the pet controversy right away rather than being accused of trying to sneak something in under the cover of darkness.


 * West Leroy Cemetery, Michigan
 * I have outstanding queries about this cemetery. More about this later.


 * Roadside Memorials, Wabaunsee County, Kansas, USA
 * Most Roadside Memorials are for people who have been killed in car crashes. This one was particularly touching.  I didn't need to create a separate page for Rose, but thought that might be a more appropriate place for the mourner's tribute.  I believe Wikia is big enough to allow for mourners, but maybe the Talk Pages would be a more appropriate.


 * Bellevue Township Cemetery, Bellevue Township, Eaton County, Michigan, USA
 * I have more photos to upload, but wanted to include one of a pet - which predeceased the owners. Regardless of whether you or I think pets are part of families or not, it is clear that these people believed that this pet was a part of their family.


 * Riverview Pet Cemetery, Ross Township, Kalamazoo County, Michigan, USA
 * I further extend this notion by saying that anyone who takes the time to bury a pet in a pet cemetery believes that pet has a special place in their family. Does love bind stronger than blood?  Love-lines rather than blood-lines.  I think the Wikia is big enough to allow for different philosophies rather than arguing about them.


 * Badwell Cemetery, McCormick County, South Carolina, USA
 * Conversely, the one example we have here is of Daddy Tom who even though a "good and faithful servant" wasn't allowed to be buried inside the walls along with the rest of the family graves. Presumably a slave, or 1/3rd of a person (if I remember my US Constitution correctly) - the rest of the slave graves are now just indentations in the ground with an unmarked, upright rock as a marker (at best).  If Wikia were in existence back then, slaves would be argued to be excluded from this genealogy website - not necessarily by anyone participating in this Wikia, but by other people on the outside.  Times change.
 * No, I'm not saying "pets" will have the same rights as slaves gained later after the US Civil War/War Between the States. I am only saying that Times Change - and often beyond our capacity to predict or recognise the future.  Is not the benefit of the Wikia software that it can accommodate these proactively?  I merely ask the questions - I can go along with whatever the community decides, and I can clean up my mess if the policy is changed.  I just wanted to get all my pet stuff out in the open.  And that is all my pet stuff - to the best of my memory.  Other users of the Wikia might have other pet stuff, but as far as I am concerned, let them add it - don't let's discourage ANY additions even if they don't quite fit into a narrow remit - ah - I don't and didn't want to argue any position, sorry.  I will respectfully submit to the will of the community.


 * Hamilton Cemetery, Bedford Township, Calhoun County, Michigan, USA
 * I chose this cemetery as an example of what happens when there is nothing positive to report. There will be several of these.  Some cemeteries (especially slave cemeteries in the Old South of the US) have been abandoned and lost.

AGAIN, my apologies for my verbosity.

I do mean this:

Respectfully submitted,

Zephyrinus 23:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)